In response to a comment I made on Matt's blog (regarding his post entitled "Physical Love"), I was (more or less) lambasted for daring to consider it a reasonable thing to live with my boyfriend instead of immediately marrying him. The general assumption seems to be that Psi and I are jumping into bed with one another (despite the fact that we aren't). On top of that, it doesn't matter if we are or are not having sex. Apparently, we are sinful if other people think that we might be having sex: it's all about appearing to be doing right, not about actually doing right.
There are so many things wrong with this that I don't really know where to begin.
Okay, firstly, the choices I make in my relationship do not serve as an excuse for other people to judge me. While I certainly appreciate my friends expressing any concerns they may have, no one (not even my friends) have to right to condemn or judge me or my relationship with God based on that information. Especially when I'm dealing with some people who don't even know me.
Secondly, there is nothing biblical which states that it is sinful to live with one's partner prior to marriage. The only thing that could possibly be relevant is Paul writing that people who can't control their sexual desires should get married. And in this case it isn't relevant, since Psi and I are not having sex. I don't know how many times I have to say this. Psi. And. I. Are. Not. Having. Sex. No christian has any ground for condemning the choice to live together before marriage on the basis of God's word. If there is something biblical you think I may have missed here, let me know. But if there was a serious argument here then someone out of Karen, Ben, Duncan and Matt (on my side of the relationship at least) would have passed it on by now.
Thirdly, log in your own eye much?
Welcome to Christianity 101:
A: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
B: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul. This is the great and first commandment and the second is like it: Love your neighbour as your love yourself. On these two hang all the law and the prophets."
A is the core of Christian belief, B is the core of Christian living. (How about C: "Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by what I do.") Christian living is about having respect and love for God above all, then having love and respect for all people. Not just the ones we like. Not just the ones who happen to live the way we want them to, who bathe regularly, who think nice neat thoughts, who agree with us.
Everyone.
The only person one is ultimately responsible for is oneself so we should look to our own behaviour before judging others as wanting. D: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?" That's not to say that we shouldn't take an interest in others, only that it is not anyone else place to judge an individual wanting. Only God has that right. And, yes, I am aware of the elements of hypocrisy in saying this, since this has more to do with me being upset than about genuine concern for the apparently unchristian behaviour of the christians around me.
On the other hand, it does bring me back to the very thing I said to Cargo some time ago, the thing which made him never speak to me again. And it is this (something which is biblical, though not stated this way in the bible): God is good, christians suck. We are sinful all and only God is without that major drawback. Maybe we should all spend a little more time listening to what He has to say instead of reinterpreting His word to reinforce our personal opinions.
There are so many things wrong with this that I don't really know where to begin.
~
Okay, firstly, the choices I make in my relationship do not serve as an excuse for other people to judge me. While I certainly appreciate my friends expressing any concerns they may have, no one (not even my friends) have to right to condemn or judge me or my relationship with God based on that information. Especially when I'm dealing with some people who don't even know me.
Secondly, there is nothing biblical which states that it is sinful to live with one's partner prior to marriage. The only thing that could possibly be relevant is Paul writing that people who can't control their sexual desires should get married. And in this case it isn't relevant, since Psi and I are not having sex. I don't know how many times I have to say this. Psi. And. I. Are. Not. Having. Sex. No christian has any ground for condemning the choice to live together before marriage on the basis of God's word. If there is something biblical you think I may have missed here, let me know. But if there was a serious argument here then someone out of Karen, Ben, Duncan and Matt (on my side of the relationship at least) would have passed it on by now.
Thirdly, log in your own eye much?
Welcome to Christianity 101:
A: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
B: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul. This is the great and first commandment and the second is like it: Love your neighbour as your love yourself. On these two hang all the law and the prophets."
A is the core of Christian belief, B is the core of Christian living. (How about C: "Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by what I do.") Christian living is about having respect and love for God above all, then having love and respect for all people. Not just the ones we like. Not just the ones who happen to live the way we want them to, who bathe regularly, who think nice neat thoughts, who agree with us.
Everyone.
The only person one is ultimately responsible for is oneself so we should look to our own behaviour before judging others as wanting. D: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?" That's not to say that we shouldn't take an interest in others, only that it is not anyone else place to judge an individual wanting. Only God has that right. And, yes, I am aware of the elements of hypocrisy in saying this, since this has more to do with me being upset than about genuine concern for the apparently unchristian behaviour of the christians around me.
On the other hand, it does bring me back to the very thing I said to Cargo some time ago, the thing which made him never speak to me again. And it is this (something which is biblical, though not stated this way in the bible): God is good, christians suck. We are sinful all and only God is without that major drawback. Maybe we should all spend a little more time listening to what He has to say instead of reinterpreting His word to reinforce our personal opinions.
8 comments:
ok, first. i love you. i really do.
i agree that it is wrong for people to judge you for living with psi. personally i don't really care if the two of you are having sex or not. that's your business. the only thing i can think of that would involve me or anyone else is if something were wrong and you were asking for advice or along those lines.
really i find the best thing to do when being judged like that by anyone is to realize that it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them. their fears and prejudices and it really has nothing to do with you. unless of course they try and force those opinions on you then it's ok to either a) walk away or b) hit them ove r the head with a blunt object and walk away. generally i advocate debating before the blunt object but it sounds like it's way past that now.
hope it all works out. and remember i'm always here if you want to talk.
Dude.
Savage beats.
No idea what asshat opened their mouth on the subject, but I do think that this qualifies as 'pwnzed'.
It's an unfortunate thing that a large part of the christian church has a bad habit of using 'concern' as an excuse to be nosy bastards - something, amusingly, explicitly forbidden in the bible. But hey, let's ignore that bit. And the bit that lets you keep slaves. And the bit that says wearing cotton and nylon together is a stoning offence.
(Note to said asshat: Even if you're my friend and I didn't know it when I called you an asshat above, my point stands. That was stupid, and as a friend, I hope you can recognise my intent.)
Just wanted to add something here: as part of the on going... um... debate (?) on Matt's blog, I have posted the following:
"'1 Peter 2 says: "Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."'
*Pauses for breath*
Not meaning to be inflammatory in any way but Matt really has a point in this: I personally feel that both of these verses (1 Tim 3:10 too) have been taken out of context and forced to back a point that is not their own. That from 1 Timothy deals with teachers being called to a higher standard than other people because they are in a position of authority over other christians and are therefore also highly prominent in the community in general. It is, however, the 2nd verse (the one quoted above) that I would particularly like to deal with.
This verse does not deal with appearances. It deals with actualities. It doesn't say "Make people think you are living a good life," or "Appear to be doing right". It calls us to actually DO right. It is about living a right life, a life pleasing to God, irrespective of how other people perceive that life. Peter is saying that we shouldn't live like non-christians but live as God chooses for us to live, bearing witness to Him in our lives so that those who do not know Him will see Him in the way we live.
Now, considering the fact that all of my non-Christian friends know that (A) Psi and I are both christians and (B) that we have chosen, because of that faith, to live a certain way, it appears to me that we are living our lives as a testiment to God, in accordance with his word, to the best of our abilities. I'm not claiming to be free of sin; I am as sinful as the next person. (Hands? Anyone?) I just feel that I am not disobeying God's will in living with Psi before we get married; indeed, in making this decision I made a concerted effort to make sure I did not fail to do his will, by reading his Word, praying, talking to Christian friends, returning to His Word, praying and all the while talking things over with Psi. This was our choice, one made with as much consideration for God's will we were capable of giving. I am very thankful for the concerns of those friends who spoke to us about it, and I am also grateful that some of those friends have respected our decision, even if they have not come to agree with it. But I am most of all grateful in the knowledge that, whatever my christian friends think of our decision, they have continued to love us and pray for us in all things.
Now that is what living a christian life, a good life, 'among the pagans' is all about."
Hey, I didn't know that you had a blog. First, I wanted to say that you are a dear sister in Christ. :) I still need to be convinced that there is a verse in the bible which "explicitly" condemns living together before marriage. But am still thinking about it...
I've posted some thoughts on the whole Mt 7 passage on my blog. Its one i struggle with, because sometimes I see people "hide" behind it, and following from Galatians 6, I believe that there is a case to speak with each other about sin in our life, but it needs to be done very carefully...
anyway, hope you are well.. and woud love to catch up with you (and Psi) next time I'm in Wollongong. (And sorry its been so long).
I think this is the final word. Once again, posted by me on Matt's blog:
"So many posts since I last looked. Most of what I'd have to say on the matter has been covered either by myself, in two post on my blog (Matt has a link to it), or by Psi. Or, as is true for the most case, both. So I will simply add a few things here and there and anyone who cares what I think can look at what I've written elsewhere.
Stoobie: at no point did I actually say, or intend to indicate in anyway, that people who disagreed with me were not my friends. In fact, if that were the case, I would be completely bereft of friendship since my friends and I frequently disagree on many things. I did, in fact, indicate that I appreciated the fact that my friends discuss their conerns with me when it is done in a loving fashion and similarly appreciated that a difference in opinion did not mean condemnation. Please, do not put words in my mouth.
Similarly, Talen has a point. I've said it before, I'll say it again; just because one thinks something, does not mean God does. We are all sinful, we are all imperfect, none amongst us is God. Therefore, your feeling or opinion (or, for that matter, 'vibe') on the matter does not equal God's thoughts. This is why the term has been 'flogged to death', as you would have it. As there is no specific reference on the topic, all we have is opinion. Now find me a bible verse that allows christians to force an individual, biblically unsubstantiated point of view on other people and insist that they live there lives by it.
As for the marriage issue, I think what Psi is trying to say is this: what is the value of a public, legal marriage when the promises made can be broken at a moment's notice, just as if they had never been made in the first place? In this, there is no difference between a legal marriage and a simple agreement, before God, to stay together for ever. One is as easy to get out of as the other and, therefore, it is the sincerity that is the only thing one has to gauge a true christian marriage, the intent to keep the promise until death, something which doesn't require the trappings we associate with marriage. While I fully intend to get married publicly and legally, the modern world has made marriage more or less a farce.
In the end, the choice of whether or not to live with one's partner prior to marriage is entirely based in our personal opinions of what God would want, like many things in life (including,by the way, abortion and euthanasia). While all available information should be taken into consideration, including prayer, bible reading, discussion with christian friends and, of course, the partner in question, and a consideration of the particular weaknesses one possesses, in the end it is up to the individuals in question. It is not up to anyone else to judge them for the choice they make if that choice is an informed one, nor is it their place to condemn them in anyway."
what is the value of a public, legal marriage when the promises made can be broken at a moment's notice, just as if they had never been made in the first place? You could apply this argument to any aspect of life where one makes promises that get broken. Does this mean we should never make promises or commitments because there exists the possibility that they may be broken? I should surely hope not. Ergo, I don't think that is a very good argument against public decleration of marriage.
Now with all due respect, and I do not know you at all, but I was wondering, with all sincerity, why are you living together? Ie, is it for reasons like you have nowhere else to live, financial support, etc?
Oh, certainly not. Marriage a promise that I certainly consider to have great value; indeed, planning on getting married myself at some stage. (This was actually in response to an enormous discussion on Matt's blog, posted here for my own benefit, mor than anything else.) My argument was more in terms of not necessarily forcing people to a particular form of marriage, a promise that is easily broken, when it has no intrinsic value over other forms of marriage.
We are living together for a number of reasons, though the primary one is simply because we want to and we are happy doing so. On top of that, we both believe in doing so before we get married so we know whether or not our relationship is serious enough to survive that kind of close living, I'm chronically ill and it helps to have someone willing to take care of me a bit and pull slightly more than their share of the housework, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper that living on my own (which is what I was doing prior to this) when neither of us has a lot of money (I can't work, am living on a disability pension and am studying part-time, and Psi is studying full-time and works two jobs on a casual basis). But mainly because we want to which, in my opinion, the most important possible reason for doing so once the question of God's point of view has been resolved in as much as it can.
And thank you. You're the first person to actually ask that question and it's made me think about the reasons for it. So thanks.
For the edification of all: Romans 14:1-8.
"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord." (NIV)
Basically: just because you are strong or weak in your faith and adjust your behaviour accordingly, does not mean you have the right to condemn others who are not like you or to see yourself as superior than they.
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